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Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX 8 Crashes In Jakarta

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Reports are coming in with information that a Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX 8 has crashed shortly after takeoff from Jakarta. Flight JT610 had just departed from Jakarta (CGK) with destination Pangkal Pinang (PGK). (airwaysmag.com) עוד...

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JonHanford
Jon Hanford 14
Sounds suspiciously like what would happen with a blocked captain's static vent on a 73 classic.

Quote: "The really nasty gotcha (in the 737 Classic anyway) is a blocked captain's static vent. During the take off roll until airborne, flight instrument indications are normal. After lift off the captain's altimeter does not move; nor does his VSI. This is where the captain has to be careful when the first officer calls "Positive rate of climb" on his side that the captain doesn't automatically reply "Gear Up". Because he does not have the usual indications of positive rate of climb on his side since his static vent is blocked.

Soon after in the initial climb (about 30 seconds after airborne) the captains ASI needle starts to slowly go backwards and indicate a speed loss due to its blocked static vent. As the airspeed needle continues to fall back, it triggers a spurious wind-shear warning and a few seconds later, off goes the stick shaker as well. The stick shaker of course is giving a false warning and the first tendency as a startle factor (seen in the simulator, anyway) is to lower the nose.

The fix is to disregard the spurious warnings and maintain the correct climb attitude for the configuration, check the correct N1. A quick check of the ground speed read-out will give the pilot a confirmation which ASI is untrustworthy. That is one reason why a glance at the expected ground speed read-out at the 80 knot or 100 knot call is a useful back-up against an unexpected erroneous airspeed event.

The blocked static vent can cause real confusion initially; which is why the pilot needs to fly expected body angle and N1 for the state of flight until trouble shooting sorts things out. During the sorting out process in the climb, be careful not to overspeed the flaps as it is all too easy to concentrate on various aural and visual warnings and ASI readings and forget that the aircraft is still accelerating fast"
trgreene
Richard Greene 4
Excellent commentary. Thanks for detailing a blocked Static. Your brief will elevate the active knowledge of many pilots. Probably will help prevent many accidents in the future.
FrankHarvey
Frank Harvey 4
The BBC is reporting that the (presumably MX) log for the immediately prior flight of this a/c reads :

"Identified that CAPT [captain's] instrument was unreliable and handover control to FO [first officer]," the log reads. "Continue NNC of Airspeed Unreliable and ALT disagree."

Which the BBC interprets to mean the ASI and Altimiter readings were unreliable.
FrankHarvey
Frank Harvey 2
Correction : "Altimiter" should read "Altimeter".
SoNic67
SoNic67 3
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/30/world/asia/indonesia-crash-lion-air-pitot.html

It seems that they had issues with Pitot tubes / airspeed indication.

What puzzles me is that in this day and age there is no mechanism to backcheck that information. Take data from the true air speed (GPS determined)and tables with known air density at that altitude / flight level - at least approximately we know the air densities - and therefore the air speed can be calculated in real time.
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
Keep in mind on Every 737 ever made and for that matter every Boeing ever made as 5 Pitot ports and 6 7 Static Ports

Pitot Sources

1 Captain Left
1 Captain Right
1 F/O Left
1 F/O Right
1 Stby System

Both systems SUM each other and pull an average from the left to the right side of the a/c.

Static Sources

1 Captain Left
1 Captain Right
1 Captain Alternate Static
1 F/O Left
1 F/O Right
1 F/O Alternate Static
1 Stby System

If one source was obstructed, they still had more than enough to fly the aircraft successfully with 1 full system totally inoperative. Will be interesting to see what the FDR/CVR's have to say about it.
kevinkeswick
Kevin Keswick 3
Track log https://flightaware.com/live/flight/LNI610/history/20181028/2310Z/WIII/WIKK/tracklog
fche
Frank Ch. Eigler 0
Perhaps flightaware could store higher temporal resolution data temporarily, in case of accidents. ADSB receivers can collect new positions every second or two, but these track logs subsample to 20s or so.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 4
One would think that at level at 5000’ and at 400 knots it would be pretty noisy in the cockpit. Instrument failure or unreliability aside, seasoned pilots know what power settings will give them a particular airspeed in level flight for different flap configurations but that would require a skill set in hand flying that is no longer taught or encouraged. See how well a desktop sim pilot does when the screen goes blank?
flynlo777
Kenneth Hazelwood 6
Basic Stick and Rudder training has seen through some tough times. You must have a feeling for what your aircraft is doing at ALL times
sstsst3front
Sam Tomlin 2
sparkie624
sparkie624 0
They have more than 1 screen, they have backup and they have 2 pilots... I cannot buy a screen failure would cause something this critical.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 2
Sparkie, that was a joke! Sim pilots have no aircraft feel.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 2
Seriously though, have to wait for the recorders. Although, a lack of knowledge of the auto thrust sytstem, Autopilot systems and FMS systems would account for a runaway, out of control aircraft? Too bad really!
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Sorry... I guess we were on different frequencies....
artpersky
artpersky 2
Like I said the lack of real pilots in this day and age is scary { I have been doing this for more than 65 yrs and use every system available at all times !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
haithamliver
steve steve 2
I feel so sad ...
sgbelverta
sharon bias 2
Judging by the first pictures of the debris field, it looks like it hit the water more or less straight down. Being a brand new plane, it should have the most current version of the black box. That should tell us a lot.
shenghaohan
Shenghao Han 2
For some reason... I had feared this will happen when they announced Lion Air will be the launch customer of 737 Max 8...

The plane is relatively new, very well developed and didn't stall...

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

picturetaker
Christian Parada 8
Lion Air has been known to have a poor record when it comes to safety.

https://www.nst.com.my/world/2018/10/426250/indonesias-lion-air-record-plane-deals-poor-safety-record
sparkie624
sparkie624 5
A slight Understatement, but they certainly are a long way for a perfect record. I think they are trying to grow too fast!
sanukjim
James Wilson Jr 2
In South East Asia in "some" of the countries many of the Captains in these start up Airlines come out of the "people of status" list with more Parker Pen time then airtime and the maintenance is a bit questionable.
shenghaohan
Shenghao Han 2
Lion Air was banned from flying in EU until recently.Tell me that isn't a big red flag.
Of course, what happened in the past is in the past, but that is the same airline had a crew landed a few month old plane in water (runway overran, insufficiently trained crew misjudged remaining runway distance and didn't go-around).

I am not suggesting a pilot error is the main cause for this crash, but some form of maintenance/ pilot error worsen it from a incident to a crash taken away 180+ lives.

The flight was during the day light, so if it is an instrument related issue, they could just go VFR and try land it that way, maybe even have another flight to meet up with them to help them judge thier speed.
From Flighradar24 data it defiantly doesn't look like a engine related issue, because it didn't stall, and I don't think a 2 month old plane will have flight control issue...

So my hypnosis is the crew lost their situational awareness, likely due to failed instrument, just like the AF447 crew, but this time poor training have contributed to the crash. AF447 was flying over ocean at FL350 and at night, they didn't have any reference object. Same with the AeroPeru 603 which was taking off at night I'm flying into an ocean...
afcjr1201
Allen Churchwell 1
It is reported that the plane had a reverse trim problem and after looking at the data in FlightAware they were level doing about 400 knots and within seconds went into a dive at over 500 knots for what appears to be at a 70 degree angle, so based on this and this alone and until further details surface it would leave me with the impression that they experienced a run away trim
CarlSmeraldi
Carl Smeraldi 1
Excellent theory my friend right on target Allen.
shenghaohan
Shenghao Han 1
From the reports I seen, there was a report about unreliable instrument and I don't think they mentioned flight control problem.

But given how well developed 737 is, I don't think a reverse trim will be the issue, it doesn't make sense for them to redesign the trim system from ground up when the trim on 737NG worked fine.

Still, my point was Lion Air had record of poor training. Whether it contributed in the crash is anothe topic, but I suspected so.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I only saw one Reverse Trim issue in the 737's... It was a very long time ago. We had a failed motor, replaced it and the new one ran backwards... The 3 Phase motor was wired backwards from the repair facility... We replaced it again and it was fine... This one was found before it was ever released. I very seriously doubt that it was a flight control issue. In regards to instruments. Other than the ISIS, everything else is Glass Cockpit.. I think we are going to have to wait and see what the investigators turn up...
CarlSmeraldi
Carl Smeraldi 0
AIR FRANCE 447 crashed due to the. Air France. stupid pilots and Captain flew into level 5 line of severe thunderstorms tops FL 500. PERIOD WHICH WAS CIRCUMNAVIGABLE EITHER LEFT OR RIGHT THAT NIGHT . OTHER AIRLINER CREWS EYE WITNESSED AF 447 go smack into flash cubes thunderstorms while the other very smart safe airliner crews went left or right PERIOD. DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE MY FRIEND . ITS ALL AN AIRBUS FRENCH INVESTIGATORS AIR FRANCE COVERUP TO NOT PAY MILLIONS IN LAWSUITS BY THESE INNOCENT PASSENGERS CABIN CREW MEMBERS FAMILIES . IT WAS NEVER PITOT STATIC. SENSORS. MY FRIEND . FROM. B747400/777/757/L1011 Pilot 25 years from, Palermo, Sicily. I checked the satellite photo that night of wall of ITCZ. TRWS ALONG THE EXACT CRASH POSITION NOVEMBER 2009. Bona note Pizanoes.
sgbelverta
sharon bias 1
The latest posting by Reuters says on a previous flight, the passengers experienced sudden and severe altitude drops. Why the heck was this plane flying? Until they determined the cause, either pilot training or plane problems it belonged on the ground? Back to Lyons safety record.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
At very least this a/c should have had a severe turbulence inspection.... When passengers say severe altitude drop it is hard to gauge... The FDR should have that data as well. If things were done properly the FDR should have been pulled after that flight to be read and determined what inspections need to be accomplished if any... I have been on flights where people complain about turbulence that really is not much!
raytoews
Ray Toews 1
Sounds like these pilots would have benefited from a few hours of ultralight time instead of relying on the video game.
I'm saying ALL airline types would!
dunbar20001
Dennis Dunbar 1
I haven't heard anyone mention the rudder problem of PGH. Could this be a repeat design problem, seems kind of sudden based on the plot form FlightAware.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Good thought, but by the same token those all happened on approach after the a/c descended from High Altitude... This one just took off and did not have time to freeze as the others had done. The only time that they would fail was after a long altitude flight and by today's standards all 737 pilots if not all Boeing captain's are trained on how to over come this issue. I very seriously doubt that this was the case.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Just saw in the news where both flight recorders were found... This is good news, I hope they get some good info from it.

https://www.wsls.com/news/international/lion-air-flight-recorders-retrieved-from-sea
sparkie624
sparkie624 -1
I stand corrected, I think it was only the CVR recovered, but at least the audio will give us some what of a clue of what was going on.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Yes, technical problem but how the crew handled it will be the question.
18933209696
Zekun Zhou 1
Seems Lion Air hasn't got prepared to handle MAX 8....
30west
30west 0
..... or the -800, for that matter. Training, training, training!
wanabzelin
Moleki Kanyimba 1
Delivered 13 Aug 2018. 2 months later written off.


Manufacturer Serial Number (MSN) 43000

Line Number 7058

Aircraft Type Boeing 737-8 MAX

First Flight 30. Jul 2018

Age 0.2 Years

Test registration N1786B

Production Site Renton (RNT)

Airframe Status Written Off
RCW
RCW 2
Given the msn 43000, I wonder if this was the first 737-8 MAX delivered?
RCW
RCW 1
Certainly Lion Air's first 737-8 MAX - http://www.asiatraveltips.com/news18/158-CMIGAviation.shtml - but how does this stack up against others delivered? How early in production, I wonder?
dbelote
David Belote 1
Could the crash have been the result "the impossible turn?" that GA is so schooled not to ever do? Don't know, just wondering...
joelwiley
joel wiley 0
Well, they turned a brand new 373 into recyclable materials
watkinssusan
mary susan watkins 1
how sad..that was a very new b737 and lion air had just received it in august..it could have been many things that caused the crash,but at least they know where to find the aircraft (it is said to be in about 100 feet of water) and are already recovering personal items and pieces of the aircraft..the news reports said the pilots were not new and had many hours of flight time...
wanabzelin
Moleki Kanyimba 0
damn. delivered 13 Aug 2018. 2 months later written off.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
That is not much bang for the buck!
TorstenHoff
Torsten Hoff -2
Expect a thread from MH370 soon...
jmyoungs30
JAKE YOUNGS -2
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Lion Air 737-MAX8 crashes 13 minutes after departure

Looks like a B38M has gone down shortly after takeoff.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/28/asia/lion-air-plane-crash-intl/index.html
williambaker08
william baker -2
Me thinks a pitot issue. Sounds like it had both altitude and airspeed issues. Of course that is what airline is saying about the previous flight.

https://www.airlive.net/breaking-188-feared-dead-after-lion-air-jt610-boeing-737-max-8-crash-in-indonesia/
artpersky
artpersky -3
It has been proven time and again that we no longer have real Pilots but computer operators that no longer have the skills to really fly an airplane !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
scottmnathan
scottmnathan -7
We need the CVR and FDR before we continue to speculate on this. There is no way the pilot had issues with altitude and instrument readings at FL050 - it should have been basic VFR for a pilot with over 6000 hours at the helm. I fear something catastrophic happened that could be a flaw in the new 8-MAX design - i hope that Boeing gets involved ASAP.
Dav5049915
Dav5049915 10
"We need the CVR and FDR before we continue to speculate on this."

"I fear something catastrophic happened that could be a flaw in the new 8-MAX design"

Shake my head.....
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
I agree... The New vs the Old 737's are the same basic design and other than Technical upgrades and different materials and carrying more payload, it is still the same basic a/c. This plane could not have much time on it... I personally don't think it is a 737 issue in my personal opinion, but it is way too early to speculate... We most certainly need both the CVR and FDR. It would also be interesting to find out what Deferrals were on the plane and what the technical issue was before the plane departed.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

kbeller44
Kyle Beller 5
trgreene
Richard Greene -1
Refer back to two B757 accidents about 1990. One a German charter out of the Dominican Republic and the other out of Lima.

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