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  • 41

Gulfstream IV crashes during takeoff at Bedford/Hanscom KBED near Boston; seven fatalties

נשלח לפני
 
Private plane ran off a runway last night at Hanscom Field in Bedford and burst into flames. Officials said all seven people aboard the plane died, according to The Boston Globe. A Massport spokesman told The Associated Press the Gulfstream IV jet crashed as it was leaving Hanscom for Atlantic City, New Jersey about 9:40 Saturday night. (www.necn.com) עוד...

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ToddBaldwin3
ToddBaldwin3 18
I think the so called "aviation expert" needs to keep his comments to himself. To try and assess any cause right now is pure speculation and WAG.
jshark00
jonathan sharkey 4
I suspect the reporter, trying to get a quote, asked some general questions about a/c fires and extracted this from among his responses. (I had that happen to me on a different topic.) But then, I'm just speculating...

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ToddBaldwin3
ToddBaldwin3 4
I guess that phrase does date us.
preacher1
preacher1 3
I had to think a minute as to what it was. Most of the time I have seen/used it, it's been SWAG, but nothing Scientific about this.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
What's "WAG" ?

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N47
N47 1
when I saw it [ being british, I had never seen it ) I deduced it probably as 'Without Any Grounding/grounds'...but 'Wild A$$ Guess' is waay more discriptive, identifying the extent of the unqualification ha ha brilliant!
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Hahaha, I like it! Thanks.
autorotation
Devon Dunphy 22
i had the unfortunate luck of being there last night and watched this all unfold. an awful scene to witness and quite the tragic event for our airport. as they say, aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. but to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

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Steve1822
Steve1822 5
Really? 37 years in aviation, I've never saw that.

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Steve1822
Steve1822 1
Not anymore.
Nino69
Anthony Spaulding 12
@mike oxlong, why are trolls like you allowed to male such stupid comments?
Nino69
Anthony Spaulding 1
Uh That should be make versus male...

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TXCAVU
Elizabeth Robillard 3
Well stated. Thank you.
TonynWichita
Tony Wilcoxen 1
2001 Avjet G lll N303GA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Avjet_Aspen_crash

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THRUSTT
THRUSTT 4
Not this time Phil. I've known Jim the pilot for over 20 years. Laid back, very nice and extremely competent. Something went drastically wrong with that airplane. I bet it wasn't pilot error.
preacher1
preacher1 4
Sorry Phil, when I was hired as an FE in 73, Captain told me that the boss was allowed to do was change our destination if possible. That held as he retired and we all rotated up and after 3 CEO's it is still in effect. The gist of it was, we didn't tell him how to run the company, and he didn't tell us how to fly the plane.

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blucenturion
blucenturion 2
Wait, you're a staff writer? "I seen some place the tower see fire out of one of the engines"
Steve1822
Steve1822 3
No it doesn't. After 36 years of flying, my experience is that the strong/assertive captains are still flying. The ones that felt pressured/intimated never really made it on with their careers. A natural weeding out process, if you will. Thankfully.
Steve1822
Steve1822 3
Mike, you are waaaaaaaaaaay off base. If you ever felt pressured into a compromising situation that compromised safety.....you have no place in the cockpit. Your weak.
racerman
larry clement 6
The media doesn't know what makes airplanes fly, and they don't have a clue what makes one crash. The NTSB will determine the cause, and will probably issue a preliminary report , after studying the data on the CVR and FDR. Isn't it amazing that everything except an airliner is a "small plane " ?. Wonder if they know a G IV costs about $50M new. Todd is right about any "expert " commentary about the cause.
DerekCooks
Derek Thomas 1
Totally agree on the "small plane" thing. In GA, I think the G IV passes as "big iron"

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autorotation
Devon Dunphy 0
now it'll be many months before we hear anything else.

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preacher1
preacher1 0
Devon has a post below that says there is some video somewhere that shows the thrust reversers stowed at the wreck, not deployed.
Steve1822
Steve1822 0
One reason James is legal. Becuase we live in the most sue happy nation in the World, NTSB investigators refrain from giving out too much detail until all components of an investigation allow them to give a preliminary cuase statement with a high degree of accuracy. Clearly there is more data they want to analyze accurately before coming out and saying exacting what those control issues were right at Vr.
PremierFlyer
PremierFlyer 3
"There could be a fire in the combustion chamber".... REALLY?! That's what engines are supposed to do! There SHOULD be a fire in the combustion chamber! What kinda "expert" is this guy...
N512C
dave garcia 2
So sad to hear of this happening. I was looking at that aircraft on the ramp earlier in the day. I only hope for the crew's sake and families involved that the investigators find fault with the aircraft and not pilot error.
nasdisco
Chris B 2
Not been a good week for flights originating in KBED. A Piper from there crashed in NY on May 25
autorotation
Devon Dunphy 1
that was a year ago, in 2013
nasdisco
Chris B 1
monstrok
John Clark 1
A similar sounding accident occurred during flight testing of a Gulfstream 650. The memory of the incident was prompted by Dennis Florian's comment below concerning the stick shaker. In this test flight accident, the shaker activation speed was incorrectly set and they stalled with one wing low before becoming airborn. Here is the NTSB report: http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2012/gulfstream/
monstrok
John Clark 1
Here is a very descriptive PDF presentation about this accident, also produced by the NTSB. The rusulting burned-out hulls look earily similar. http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/speeches/weener/weener_130109.pdf
dbaker
Daniel Baker 1
A Gulfstream IV private plane ran off a runway last night at Hanscom Field in Bedford and burst into flames. Officials said all seven people aboard the plane died, according to The Boston Globe.

A Massport spokesman told The Associated Press the Gulfstream IV jet crashed as it was leaving Hanscom for Atlantic City, New Jersey about 9:40 Saturday night.
TorstenHoff
Torsten Hoff 1
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/01/us/massachusetts-plane-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Among the dead was Lewis Katz, co-owner of The Philadelphia Inquirer, the Philadelphia Daily News and philly.com, those news agencies reported Sunday. He was 72.

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THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
I think the last movement would've been the crash...
autorotation
Devon Dunphy 1
mike echo departed tonight june 1st at 9:43. not last night may 31st.
DFlorian
Dennis Florian 1
There is a checklist requirement to test the stall barrier (stall warning) system before flight, after engine start. This entails pulling the yoke full aft, while the PIC and SIC, simultaneously press test switches, (each on their own side of the cockpit). It's usually after this test that the PM/PF will perform a free and correct movement check of the flight controls.

My WAG is that they did the shaker test but never checked free & correct movement of the flight controls afterwards. I believe we'll find out from Gulfstream in this investigation that there is a unique set of circumstances in which a valve causes a binding of the flight control for the elevator because of that test.

Maybe we'll have some GIV guys come forward who've had the same issue but were fortunate enough to have a longer runway in the unusual abort past V1/VR call-outs. Certainly a high level of skill to high speed abort in a 'surprised' situation like that...no doubt. Just hope some professionals come forward and share their experience (if any).
avsgman
Chris Pedersen 1
Very sorry to hear about the loss of the people in this accident. Devon, I would be interested to hear what you saw. Plane never rotated? Was it on fire while rolling down the runway? Thanks for your comment in advance.
autorotation
Devon Dunphy 0
i briefly saw it prior to take off on the taxiway in the dark and then arrived post crash. that's all.
new daylight photos are coming out now though because they just in the past few hours let press come to the crash scene itself. a note, the new video shots show the thrust reverses are in the stowed position at the wreck, not deployed.
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 1
LIVE Video 2:30 AM presser

http://www.wcvb.com/newscenter-5-breaking-news-coverage/26273944
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 1
UPDATE:

Airport officials confirm that there are NO survivors among the seven persons on board. The official would not confirm or deny if the victims were from the local area. Next press conference at 8:00AM
jf508
Jon Filleul 1
N121JM, hoping for some good news..tho it looks grim
nasdisco
Chris B 1
Lots of close up pictures of the wreckage. Lots of questions in my mind over the effect that ditch had.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2646565/Charred-wreckage-private-jet-claimed-lives-billionaire-Lewis-Katz-six-revealed-emerges-pilots-didnt-time-issue-call-help.html
rfinsl1
mike Hamilton 1
Whats curious is that their appears to be a large section of inboard flap far north of the crash site.. pre impact with the lighting system, While possible it ripped off while bouncing through the grass..could suggest it was deployed further than the others.. Flap dis-symmetry would defiantly cause control issue. Used to watch N121JM everyday at KILG.. Thoughts and prayers with families and friends
anthony96
anthony96 1
nasdisco
Chris B 1
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2645161/Private-plane-seven-people-board-crashes-runway-taking-Atlantic-City.html
EyeFLYjets
I FlyJETS 1
According to a source close to the investigation and a former NTSB member himself, I was told the control locks were not released after engine start.....and didn't follow after-start checklist.

What seems odd is the RTO and why they could not stop. A friend of mine who has flown GIV's for ten years told me that a GIV could have made an RTO, done it a second time and still stopped in the length of runway at Bedford.

Any GIV drivers out there that wish to comment? I am curious why Gulfstream wouldn't have a warning for that, similar to any other T.O. configuration abnormal.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Was there an RTO, and at what point? I don't think runway length would have anything to do with it anyway; it wouldn't matter if it was 5 grand or 12 grand, but how long he kept it on the ground and at what point the problem appeared to make want to RTO. To boot, if it was home or a familiar airport he may have been on the ground a little longer before rotating, and by general consensus, that seems to be the point where the problem occurred, for whatever reason.
EyeFLYjets
I FlyJETS 1
RTO?....apparently not,...or not in time and that's the question. And runway length has everything to do with it....and that's why we have Take-off data. Surely somewhere during the takeoff roll the PF (or PNF) would have made some control input and not having any response in controls...or they were locked ...someone would have would have called for an immediate abort.

Puzzling.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I agree with that. All Jim is saying is that there are folks that either knew this plane and/or the crew, and info such as yours, while it may be valid, needs to be by PM or otherwise kept off a public forum until facts are official.

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EyeFLYjets
I FlyJETS 1
Max rotation sped at Max TO wt. 140 kts. Flap safety speed 170 kts.... Tire burst speed 180
EyeFLYjets
I FlyJETS 1
Why would you become a test pilot and rotate 25 kts over Vr....calm winds, VFR, no reported windshear, light load(?)
preacher1
preacher1 1
"little longer" does not a test pilot make. Familiarity might account for some of it. idk. just speculating like everyone else here.

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preacher1
preacher1 2
Amen Bro.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EyeFLYjets
I FlyJETS 2
Well Jim, hurt that it might, any aviator worth his salt pretty much already knows the answer, unfortunately. Why such a powerful jet, with tons of stopping power.....lightly loaded, heading on a twenty minute flight would go off of the end of a runway, blast past the airport perimeter, thru a fence and stop 2000 feet later??

It had to be control issue.....remember the Gulfstream accident in Palwaukee???

Funny that you clamor for information, then when you get it, you want to shot the messenger and not accept the message.

What, IS the correct way....and if zi may quote an idiot politician, what difference does it make?

In 37 years of professional flying, I've lost friends, too. Witnessed three aviation accidents myself...that all claimed lives...including the Reno accident, where I helped clean out a helicopter used to transport casualties. It hurts, but we have to learn from others mistakes.

Hopefully something good will come out of this tragedy.

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EyeFLYjets
I FlyJETS 1
WHOA.....Change your prescription, Captain... I NEVER said anything about crew being at fault. I simple stated what an investigator reportedly said to a colleague with regards to the position of a control handle.

Nothing more.

I am as baffled as you and everyone else is as to what occurred and I am eager to vindicate the crew.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 2
Maybe it was your wording. Your lead-in sentence does seem to infer pilot error, then you wound up with something about learning from others mistakes. I can understand how that could be misconstrued.

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EyeFLYjets
I FlyJETS 1
How much GIV time do you have Mr. Farnsworth??? I have seen my companies GIV fly off the short runway at KBFI field and fly to Mazatlan with 8 pax on board.

I am also told that Gulfstream Pilots demonstrated a mid weight RTO using T/R's only and stopped in under 5000 feet.

Just saying.

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EyeFLYjets
I FlyJETS 1
Well Jim...you and Preacher, understandable don't have complete knowledge on the capabilities of a GIV...( and apparently, neither do I, I'll tell you why in a moment. I am just reporting what my sources said they found).

Perhaps these folks didn't recognize the problem until reaching165 kts...though I don't see how SOMEONE didn't hand their hand on the yoke during T.O roll...and recognize the problem.but at Max T.O. Wt at KBED their rotation speed would have been no more than 140 kts.....VI less.


The highest rotation speed a GIV would have at Bedford...even at Max weight ( 74,600 lbs.) would be approximately138-140....But like I said at a weight I am guessing they were at (56,000 lbs.) their rotation speed would be approximately 124-125, but here's the important point ...BFL would have been 3300 -3400 feet.... ....room for two stops ( ok, I'll give some degradation due to thermal load....but it IS feasible).

One thing I wasn't sure about but DID check on was....and hence my error, is that the Throttles would have been locked ( guys went out and physically checked it and the throttles won't advance).... You COULD taxi however.

My error...and I apologize for that....Lo sieto, Mia culpa!

As I mentioned a GIV is an incredible aircraft..... Six people out of Boeing Field's short runway 3710' and enough fuel to fly 3.5 hours to Tamarindo, Mexico
preacher1
preacher1 0
I'd have to agree with James here. Your part about the 2 RTO's was what got me.
callnab
norman belanger 0
norman belanger 2 minutes ago 1 Downvote
Upvote

If we could , in this country let the experts figure it out first and determine what really happened in these events and let the lawyers and spin doctors loose later rather than the other way around reputations would not be put into question and families would not be sucked through the wringer needlessly.
Bernie20910
Bernie20910 -2
I read elsewhere that Mr. Katz and his partner had recently gone though some very heated negotiations to whittle down the number of owners of the newspapers to just the two of them. I hope that fact does not take the investigation off on a wild tangent, trying to find a connection if none actually exists. Investigate the possibility, of course, but the primary focus needs to be on the facts, not speculations.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Then perhaps you shouldn't be introducing the possibility of such a speculation?
nasdisco
Chris B -3
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Gulfstream IV crashes on take off at KBED.

BEDFORD — A private plane carrying seven people ran off a runway Saturday night at Hanscom Field and burst into flames. All seven died, officials said.

The plane, a Gulfstream IV headed to Atlantic City International Airport in New Jersey, was departing from Hanscom Runway 11 at about 9:40 p.m., according to Jim Peters, a spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration.

Sharon Williams, the Hanscom Field director, said early Sunday morning that families of the victims were being notified.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/05/31/small-plane-crashes-hanscom-field-faa-says/WgrPLtvHF29fia9KctZboJ/story.html
rmfg
Rob Gibbs -3
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Private Jet Bursts Into Flames in Crash Near Boston

A civilian jet crashed on takeoff and burst into flames Saturday night at an airfield in eastern Massachusetts, officials said.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/private-jet-bursts-flames-crash-near-boston-n119491
angl1
Doug Anglin -3
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Philadelphia Inquirer co-owner dead in plane crash G-IV

Mass. (AP) — Philadelphia Inquirer co-owner Lewis Katz was killed along with six other people in a fiery plane crash in Massachusetts, just days after reaching a deal that many hoped would end months of infighting at the newspaper and restore it to its former glory

http://news.msn.com/us/philadelphia-inquirer-co-owner-dead-in-plane-crash?ocid=ansnews11
callnab
norman belanger -1
If we could , in this country let the experts figure it out first and determine what really happened in these events and let the lawyers and spin doctors loose later rather than the other way around reputations would not be put into question and families would not be sucked through the wringer needlessly.

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