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קריאות וכותרות ראשיותNTSB: Plane aborted landing, hit utility pole

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NTSB: Plane aborted landing, hit utility pole

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A small private jet carrying a surgeon and members of his clinic staff aborted its landing at a Georgia airport before it hit a 60-foot utility pole and crashed in a flaming wreck, killing five people onboard and injuring two, federal authorities said Thursday. (www.chron.com) עוד...

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allench1
allench1 4
It might be better to hold off on that kind of speculation. Many other reasons are out there such as an engine problem, flap retraction issue, I just think another pilot should not jump to a fault another pilot without more confirmed evidence
tarbaby
phil gibson 2
There is Security Video being reviewed. It does show however that a "balked landing" was initiated. I do feel that " Pilot Error" is a great possibility .......unfortunately. The Captain, being the PIC will have to take full responsibility for the outcome. I really do not believe there was any issue with the plane. That aircraft is fully capable of a good climb gradient, even single engine/flap malfunction of which neither, in my opinion was the case, to clear a 60ft. obstruction a1/4 mile past the end the runway. Lets be honest, there were some very serious mistakes/decisions made at the 500 HAA on the final approach. Very very sad......
allench1
allench1 0
I still believe it is best to not speculate on human error at this point until the investigation is completed. One does not know who may be reading these posts so I think we should avoid any more distress if possible. One could point to many facts but we were not in the pilot seats. We will all know soon enough. "humans can read equipment cannot".
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
No one is "speculating" Allen. These are opinions based on what is currently available, and they are opinions only. Not an investigation type.review.....strictly a forum. Even the investigators will have all types of opinions and they will collectively come to one conclusion in the final report.....which will take months to finalize....then guess what? The Lawyers will step in....and it is off to the races, unfortunately. It is bad all the way around, no matter how you slice it. None of us has blamed the PIC......not enough evidence at this point . The NTSB will do their due diligence and try to determine why this happened, and make recommendations to see if this can be avoided from happening again. Problem is, this type of accident has happened before, and it will happen again. Flying is in reality ... 10% skill and 90% judgement......
allench1
allench1 1
What is the difference between speculating and basing your opinion, Phil I have just given my opinion and you have given yours, mine will not hurt anyone, yours could, unless of course you have knowledge that friends and relatives are not reading these post. That was my only concern this early.we'll just leave it at that especially sense you did not address my only issue in my last post. I would refer you back to your previous post 2 days ago when you said you were speculating and looking at other reasons. I am not disputing what could have happened I just think it is wrong to start having opinions on our own until we know more, that's all
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Allen, check your post with your "speculation" concerning the dump switch......
allench1
allench1 1
on our own meant fellow pilots
emmanuelaponte
emmanuelaponte 2
I have to agree with the other gentleman. You were not there, you were not flying that airplane, you did not make the decisions that were made in that moment, and I am not saying that you are not, but you are more than likely not typed in that aircraft. If you are a pilot, then you probably can come up with a possible reason for the accident with the information given and your experience as a pilot. However this is a public forum, and your opinion can be seen by countless individuals. If this was your father/brother/uncle/friend or anyone with any kind of significance to you, I am certain that that you would not appreciate them being labeled as an incompetent pilot by sating it was simply pilot error. I am sure that the families will do a lot of reading on this, and it would be unfortunate for the, to see a post by some person that has never met their family going off about how some very bad mistakes and decisions were made. If that is what the NTSB determines then so be it..that is their job.

Let have a bit of decency.
allench1
allench1 1
Phil it is obvious that I was referencing the difficult of reaching the lift dump switch as well as moving the flap switch to the correct notch. I know this from my familiarization of the 390, and you?
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Allen, there is No lift dump switch in the Premier. It is a Speed Break Swith..and it is not difficult to get to,as well as the Flap lever
allench1
allench1 1
Phil you are so full of it. I have owned and flown my 1A and Beech calls it a lift dump and so do I. How many hours do you have in 390's. And it is certainly not easy to get to at the rear of the pedestal. That being said it wold appear he never landing and might not have pushed the go-around switch. But. we do not know what was occurring in the cockpit at that moment.Call any beech rep and ask him about the lift dump.
preacher1
preacher1 1
This oughta be good.lol
allench1
allench1 1
In the original airplane the squat switches had to close to tell the Premier it was on the ground before the lift dump could deploy. But if the pilot bounced the landing, it took time to get the squat switches to close again after the second, or perhaps third touchdown. This all delayed lift dump deployment and runway was racing by before maximum braking became available.

The fix for that was to make the lift dump system independent of the squat switches and make a new control handle on the center pedestal to activate the system. Now, the pilot arms lift dump for takeoff or landing and then moves the handle to activate the system. The lift dump system is now always under the pilot's control, so he can get maximum braking after touchdown or during an aborted takeoff no matter what the squat switches say. Lift dump is locked out during other phases of flight to prevent an unintended deployment.
Read more at http://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-reports/jets/beech-premier-ia-hits-its-stride?page=0,1#lrYsIkRGok8ACH4B.99 CHEW ON THIS PHIL
james801
James Farnsworth 1
Dam I post a link to the report and it starts all over. Lol. I think all of us that are going back and forth are very good high time ATP’s if not we would not have the passion and knowledge to point out the thing we do. I have noticed in the last few months I have been reading and posting to FA it’s the same group of us other than a few guys that are just dumb to the fact that to know you have to have been there done that and got the t-shirt for it before you should open your mouth or key board. One thing is for sure I had the honor of being trained by Denny Fitch that was on UAL232 that has been through this as a pilot that lived and other didn’t and it was on his mind all the time. If the pilots did what they could or not they will never forget. Till 911 I would say no one takes off with the intent of crashing, outside of that type of person no one says lets go crash and die. Like the thugs that rob & carjack people if they thought the person they was about to carjack had a gun and would kill them when they pulled open the door they would not do it. No one gets up and says I am going to die today. If more good guys had guns crime would go down. If more pilots had the 20 years in the cockpit we do you may not see the crashes we do. By the way don’t pull my door open lol.
james801
James Farnsworth 1
Can you send a private message on FA? If so Preacher1 will you send me one I can reply to.
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Ok Allen, No need to Shout! So .....you claim to be an Owner /Operator? I understand there IS a lift dump system. But what I was stating is that there is a Speed Brake capability on the Premier in which it is used in an inadvertent overspeed condition and is to be retracted prior to landing @50 feet?
That's a trivia question for you. Your turn.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Phil: Allen is perfectly capable of speaking for himself but just for your information he is a retired ATP Captain and is/was O-O of a premeir.
preacher1
preacher1 1
If you can send one, I'll get it in the morning. It's bedtime for this old man.lol
preacher1
preacher1 1
I just sent it. I don't know all about it yet either. If it don't pop out on your regular Email, on FA, go to DISCUSSIONS and click on new messages. It should be in there. If your setting aren't totally right back there on the mail, you nor a recipient will receive any notice that it's there
allench1
allench1 1
Ok Phil enough fun for this thread. I will agree that we are both right. It has been fun though
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Preacher, I know he is capable of speaking for himself.....I never questioned that. I think we all have kicked this Lift Dump/Speed Brake business around plenty enough. Opinions and knowledge have been put out there. It has been a rather healthy debate. Communication has been key. That's what's it's all about. And for that, I thank all!
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
OK Allen, I' m in total agreement with you. It has been interesting and fun. I certainly learned from it from fellow Aviators and non- aviators alike. Preacher has been a really good referee! Thanks Preacher! See everyone in future postings. Blue Skies my Friends!
preacher1
preacher1 1
Yeah, I guess the details will all come out as both pilots survived. For whatever reason, according to the NTSB prelim, he aborted the landing. For what reason and at what point, he will have to say.
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Absolutely Right Preacher. All, including myself are very saddened by this tragic accident.....what happened and why it happened is a mystery. Lets all prey for the victims and both injured Pilots.
racerman
larry clement 1
Airplanes usually don't crash because of one cause, and anything at this time is speculation, but I'd bet on pilot error as being a major contributor. If they were doing a missed approach, they certainly shouldn't have hit a 60' high pole a quarter mile past the runway.
james801
James Farnsworth 1
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I always read Sumwalts articles, but this is the first time I ever listened to him on the youtube clip.
Man I just got flashbacks of when I was about 10 listening to the guy narrating the Black Beauty story on a 45.
I think only Preacherman and Phil may know what a 45 is, for you younger kids it was kinda like a cd back in the days...
allench1
allench1 1
Add me in that group. The two step, box step dances I fell upon this ride back in August of 45. Started flying my dads baron at 14 and a j3 cub. Kh
epicflight
Brennan Rogers 1
They just may have stalled at low alt
allench1
allench1 1
Did not realize I had cap's on.
allench1
allench1 1
Tks Thrustt. Been flying for 52 yrs doing this a few months
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Both Pilots lived........they'll know what events transpired......if they have a memory of it.
twincessna
william koehler 1
I just read again, the crash in buffalo and again I thought as a pilot how critical they error in the lists and altitude awareness, and this acident wheremaybe their missed procedures were in error. No one feels worse than the crew, who grew up wanting to their best and just fly. There is nothing more unforgiving as aviation. Most mistakes and crashes lead to future flights becoming safer. After reading ntsbs there are procedures that remind me of prior accidents.
allench1
allench1 1
Are you kidding preacher was having the time of his life watching us I talked with him a few hours ago. We should bill him for entertainment fee's. got that preacher lol
tarbaby
phil gibson 2
We as pilots/crew have a responsibility and duty to the safe outcome, and the destiny of the flight......kinda scary isn't it?
It is a tremendous responsibility. Just read the NTSB.GOV website accident data base and see the number of innocent accident victims who perish or are seriously injured by the PICs poor technique/decision making. There are accidents every single day......not even counting the incidents that are not reported or gathered. The Pilot/crew are in the drivers seat, in the pointed end, hopefully not like a hitched up trailer on the back end, just holding on.....
james801
James Farnsworth 1
Phil Gibson. I try not to get in to a pissing contest with people on this forum. But your comment in the above post of “We as pilots/crew have a responsibility and duty to the safe outcome, and the destiny of the flight......kinda scary isn't it?” is to me a very big dish to every true airmen. I have been in the cockpit for over 20 years now and one thing you can bet your ass on is a true airmen puts safety first and knows all of the people that are on the planes life’s are in our hands. It’s not scary if it is you have no place in the cockpit. If passengers thought it was scary there would be no need for air travel. But they all trust us anything can happen and it will at the worst times. I would give my life any day for someone on my flight. And as to that flying is 10% skill and 90% decision making is not true any, bad or poor decision can get you in a dangerous situation it is 90% skill to get you out of it.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well said. I consider both these guys friends and as Allen said, all are entitled to their opinion. It is natural on this forum for the speculation and opinions to run rampant, BUT, at one time or other, if you have flown for any length of time, we have all had one of them Oh SH** moments and gotten by with one that the book said we couldn't do. This was one that he got by with personally as far as living, but unfortunatly, people died so it is not one there'll be any hangar flying done about. It is something that he will have to live with the rest of his life and I am sure will go over it daily in his own mind. We should be respectful as far as speculating about the cause. That said, this is a public forum that acts as a sounding board for just such events and it is human nature to want to do so, especially if we didn't know the individual or airport involved and you can express an opinion but as you say, it probably won't be the final word.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Very interesting and to the point.... How did he get that low to hit a 59 foot concrete pole... This in my opinion is clearly pilot(s) error.
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Something definitely went wrong in their missed approach technique.
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Pickle..pitch...power...flaps 10... Positive rate....gear up ( the gear was still extended) V2...V2+10 & 400 HAA (minimum) climb to 1500agl....Vnr....in my opinion, and strictly MY opinion.....they may not have been prepared for a go-around. Take off or landing, you should always have a plan of action.....should you have a hiccup....a lot can happen in a very short period of time. An Abnormal can very quickly turn into an Emergency if not handled properly.....and then again we're all human. There is no Silver Bullet.
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Preacherman is always there for us all! Go Preacher! Keep us all entaintained! I mean that in a GOOD way. Thanks for being there.
preacher1
preacher1 1
It was interesting, to say the least.lol Based on the NTSB prelim though, you are probably right, in that there is some mechanical involved there
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
It's alright, never saw what the big deal was having caps on...

james801
James Farnsworth 1
A 10 point Buck looks dam good in the woods if your hunting, but an O S*** once your over the runway numbers. Power would have been the PIC and flaps the FO if the FO hit the flaps BEFORE the power?? Had that happen to me but we still had 7,000 of runway before the end day time and an open field past the runway. But had i not went wings level for a second we would have been pushing stall speed.
preacher1
preacher1 0
Am I that old? If you remember them you'll tell your own age.lol
preacher1
preacher1 1
Whatever happened to cause it, sounds like he had about got clear if that pole was 1/4 mile off the runway, although that wasn't much height
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Old is when years don't add up.... They Multiply :) Looking at what happened... Doesn't have alot of details... I wonder if that plane has a CVR or FDR on board.
bishops90
Brian Bishop 1
Had a stack of em! A friend of mine put a picture of one of those little 45 adapters on Facebook to see how many kids on there knew what it was. Pretty funny.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I'm a youth Preacherman
preacher1
preacher1 2
That's just one of them times when you're doing all you can and saying "cimb bitch climb"!!
james801
James Farnsworth 1
Why is it we are always talking about how old we are??? Like you and i have talked about before Preacher1 new stuff is nice but i still miss the old days & ways.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, the new stuff is nicer as far as the mundane, repetitive stuff that goes on, but the old stuff is what you developed stick and rudder skills on. Some guys today can't open a door without a checklist. To a lot of us old folks all a checklist is for is to tell you about something new. Most time, as in the case of this crash, you don't have time to go hunting for it. The old days bring back memories that you laugh about and wouldn't take anything for, but in a lot of cases, wouldn't go thru them again for a million $.lol
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Yes, those were the days! Fun times! Gotta luv it.
allench1
allench1 1
when ya gona come down to destin for a visit freight man...
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, I'm back to halfway working right now, at least for a couple of years and on call for fill in, so I won't be getting too far away. How you doing anyway. It just now dawned on me this morning who I was talking too. For whatever reason, I didn't recognize that handle and hadn't heard from you on Email awhile.
allench1
allench1 1
email me as I lost all info when computer crashed. tks
preacher1
preacher1 1
gimme just a minute
james801
James Farnsworth 1
If you look at the satellite picture of the airport on FA that is a big building off the end of runway 10 and I am sure there is a lot lights on it. If there was ground fog I am sure most of us have seen how the lights do in the fog or low overcast it has spooked me more than a few times. If he thought he may hit the building and pulled up and banked hard the stall could have happened before he knew it. If so it may have saved a lot more life on the ground. Most of us that made a career out of flying would give our life in a second to save others if its onboard or on the ground.
preacher1
preacher1 1
uh huh.lol. Takes awhile to become a Lear Captain!
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
Looks like I'm gonna have to bump u up a notch
bentwing60
bentwing60 2
Didn't take that long if you were flying freight, and didn't take long to sort the wheat from the chafe. Still somewhat amazed at the safety record of Part 135 Lear freight flying as the guy's (me) and a whole bunch of others moved up at a high rate of speed. Next thing I knew they were all flying Lear 60's for Flex and bragging about the performance of a new jet. Still haven't flown one.
james801
James Farnsworth 1
Please note the correct tail number N777VG not the N324AM you have listed.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N777VG
atlwatchdog
Watch Dog 1
My mistake. Saw a PRM1 landed HQU and assumed. My apologies.
allench1
allench1 0
It was going to be only a matter of time before the 1- 1A would have a fatal overshoot after so many overruns which led to the installation of the lift dump switch which is located slightly behind the pilots on the center pedestal and can be difficult to reach especially when trying to abort a touchdown as full power should have been able to give the pilot excellent climb performance. The fact the pilots new the airport, clear night and were known to be proficient in the 390 I can only come to the above stated possibility.
bishops90
Brian Bishop 1
What is it about this aircraft that makes it so prone to overruns? I've not really followed it.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, 2 things here. Hopefully we'll know one of these days as the story said they thought one of the survivors was one of the pilots. Wonder why they were talking about other clinics in the region and the FA flight track link here shows it coming out of Alliance in Ft.Worth,TX.
DAL29
Brian Moody 1
I think its too hot on arrival because of the short wings...
james801
James Farnsworth 1
It was N777VG not the N324AM listed above. The FA track on the N777VG is KJWN to KHQU.
It says in most news reports the weather was good and FA showed at 0530 showed clear below 12K Viz 10 miles. But in a lot of the pictures it looks like there may have been some ground fog. But they was landing on RWY 10 that has an ILS on it. We will see when the pilot starts talking I guess but seem s they came in high and hot and got behind the airplane for a CFIT. You can get very complacent at airports you use all the time.
HunterTS4
Toby Sharp 1
little wings, fast mover
bentwing60
bentwing60 2
As a seasoned golfer once told his playing partner, after a bad round, it ain't the clubs. These guys had obviously been there before, and as for this time, I don't know why! That's called high wing loading, ever flown a 20 series Lear or an MU-2? Neither are particularly forgiving of poor pilot technique but served long and productive lives. It ain't the clubs.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
That's right, aircraft get a bad rap based on pilot performance, or lack of performance!!!
james801
James Farnsworth 1
I love the MU-2's but you got to have good Good stick and rudder skills or it will take you to a place you don’t want to go quick and don’t like to go back your way. No high class uncle auto’s on most of the MU-2’s means you better have your stuff together.
bentwing60
bentwing60 2
Pilots airplane. I think the MU-2s had the old Bendix M series autopilots originally and the Lears had the Lear FC whatever, (200) I can't remember, and both meant you were on your own at the least opportune of times. Ever try to hand fly a 20 series at 450. A blink and the dinger goes off. Great fun! And my math says a Premiere 390 has a wing loading of 61 PPSF VS. 65 PPSF for a Lear 25 at max. gross. Good in turbulence, bad on short final!
allench1
allench1 1
Brain as I stated about the lift dump switch before they installed it the slats or lift dump panels would raise out of the wing to put weight onto the wheels to improve breaking as this aircraft did not have reverse thrust on the engines. Many new pilots would land hot and bounce the plane and the lift dumps would retract back into the wings and not re-deploy causing breaking problems and so the overruns. Another reason could be that the NFP either did not get the flaps back to the takeoff position or retracted them to the full up position causing the stall speed to increase so once they were out of ground effect the plane simply mushed in. SAD FOR ALL.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Just out of idle curiosity, where did you find that?
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I go into Greensboro, just west of there, on a regular basis. The fog is usually bad early morning, but usually burns off by 0700. In the late afternoon it's usually the sunset right down the runway that blinds you, almost as bad as landing west in the afternoon at SAN. If the wx shown is accurate, I can't imagine what other restrictions to the vis. would be there, unless something local in nature, or maybe a steeper app. due to obstructions.
bishops90
Brian Bishop 1
Yes, very sad. Thanks for the info.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
The article said there's no evidence the aircraft ever touched down.
james801
James Farnsworth 1
I live in GA so when it hit FOX 5 Atlanta on the 10pm news that it crashed at 8pm i looked up the airport and it was the only flight that had an 8pm arrival time and the NTBS Twitter it also.
allench1
allench1 1
I am not sure but I do not think a normal touchdown would leave any tire marks that could be determined were from that plane I would imagine they were looking for skid, heavy braking marks which would have indicated touchdown point or blown tire. etc. just saying. I know the plane well.
bishops90
Brian Bishop 1
Same model Jack Roush crashed at KOSH a few years back if I recall?
allench1
allench1 1
The security camera's should help determine a touchdown or not. It is hard for me to accept that knowing the airport well,clear and light winds would result in that late of an attempted go around while still in the air would have occurred. But all things are possible I guess.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Yeah, who knows... But it is always better to go off the end at idle power than attempting to get airborne again at full power.
A good example is the Hawker crash in Owassa, MN.
preacher1
preacher1 0
yr2012
matt jensen 0
Or the runway wasn't long enuf
allench1
allench1 2
5500' IS MORE THAN ENOUGH RUNWAY MATT, HILTON HEAD IS 4300' GO IN THEIR ALL THE TIME
yr2012
matt jensen 1
No need to shout - it's a legit question! Since Phil answered it - it may well be part of the reason, or there was an obstruction
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
It is displaced 300 feet on one end and 200 on the other....usable is about 5000. At night and possibly a bit above ref, with a ref of about 110,,,,, only speculation,,,,,wasn't there. The one surviving pilot may have the key to what may have happened. The go around may also have caused by an "obstruction" on the runway? Also, applying 85% N2 would have retractied the speed brakes if in fact they were deployed at any point. The question has to be, at what point was the go around initiated ? We're the flaps raised to a take off position. So many questions .
preacher1
preacher1 2
As you say, it's all speculation at this point. As we all know, anything could have happened. We weren't there, and everything is speculation at this point. We of all people don't need to arbitrarily say pilot error before facts are known. 2 well qualified pilots as far as we know, and the testimony of the one surviving could blow everything here out of the water. Obviously something happened from which they couln't recover. Bad day, obstruction or mechanical? Only the one that was there can say.
BDant93
Blythe Dant -1
The first officer walked away, and the captain is expected to make a full recovery according to local news reports. I live about 15 miles from this airport and know the airport very well. In my opinion there is no reason as to why they couldn't climb above the power pole, it is a long way from the end of the runway. That is IF AND ONLY IF they initiated the go around soon enough. Hate to say it but I would vote pilot error no doubt. Comm ASEL, About to finish CFI and Comm AMEL.